Monday, September 21, 2009

SCIENCE - What can we really say?

First, please excuse the amount of time between posts. It’s been busy around here and I consider that extra cause for thanks.

Dave’s last post brings us very nicely into a most important point in our series. Some roads in our apologetic walk should not be trod upon. You will quickly find yourself in a mire. The same can be said for scientific claims. As J.P. Moreland points out in the Saddleback conference, about 95% of science has nothing to do with theology and 95% of theology has nothing to do with science. There is some overlap mind you, and we shall explore much of that overlap as we proceed. But it needs be known that just because someone is a scientist does not mean he or she can say they have disproved God. And there are many Christian believers (or Jewish or Muslim) who just as mistakenly say, ‘I can give you proof for God.’

This is most important. Write this down; it is childishly simple: There is no proof or disproof for God. There is no one who can come to you and say, “I can prove to you that God does not exist.” Nor is there is anyone who can say, “I can prove God exists.”

C.S. Lewis once (quite seriously) quipped, ‘the day that someone can offer proof for God it will likely be too late, for it will be the Last Day.’ We have other articles on faith here at Timor Dei, but the gist is that belief in God or disbelief in Him, must be just that: a belief. If the existence of God were so easily known, we would not have a choice in knowing of Him at all.

Now, it is not a matter of knowing of God with which Christianity concerns itself, but knowing Him, i.e personally, having an intimate relationship with Him. There is a difference. I can know of a beautiful woman, or I can know her. By merely knowing of a woman I may never actually speak to her. However, in knowing her personally, I can come to know her quite intimately and even become engaged and marry her. Then our knowledge of each other really begins to grow, but not without consequence on our lives mind you; I must make concession for her and she for me. That need not be the case for someone of whom I am merely aware exists. (In fact, quite happily for them, most beautiful women don’t know I exist!)

I digress. My point here is that if there were proof of God, then we must know of His incredible majesty and beauty as the Creator of all, including our consciences, our reason and emotions, all wonder, good and love (not evil, but that is a different argument - see WHAT GOOD IS EVIL?) so, just as a man may be overwhelmed by a beautiful woman, so would we be overwhelmed by God. He is our ultimate joy or our ultimate fear. And were He undeniably real, than so would His majesty be and our love for Him would, too, be entirely thorough, though it would not be ours, so to speak, for we would have no choice in the matter. In order for our love for Him to be real love, so great and real a God is He that He must stay hidden. Love must be a choice. That is a wondrous first clue to His love, that He honors you enough to give you a choice. You don’t have to believe. And for that, too, I love Him.

So, Christianity cannot say, “I can prove God.” Nor can science say it disproves God. Science as we will see cannot make statements about 'metaphysical' things. It can, at times, answer the how, but not the why; giving reason does not answer purpose.

But what we, as witnesses can say is, ‘I can give you some very convincing clues, both scientifically and theologically that I would like you think about.’ The evidence we do have, the universe and life as we do know it, as we experience it, I believe that the theological answer is the answer that best fits what we know reality to be. Ultimately, nothing we say can ever convince anyone of the truth of God anyway; that isn’t our job. It’s the Holy Spirit’s job to do that and He is best at it. So let Him do His work and let us get busy doing ours.

8 comments:

David England said...

As Craig said in his debate with Chris Hitchens (paraphrased), "I don't need to offer you completely convincing proofs [as you say, Robin, such a thing may not be possible] but I just need to show that the best explanation is God", and the open minded and open hearted will follow the evidence to that best explanation.

Devils Advocate said...

Omniscience and Free Will:

If God is omniscient does this not take away our free will. Surely, if he is all knowing then he will know what our actions are going to be before we do them, and we are therefore not acting freely.

Being omniscient He will know who is to go to Heaven and Hell before we are even born.

Furthermore, He would have known what is going to happen to the Universe before he created it.

Is he just bored?

David England said...

“If God is omniscient does this not take away our free will. Surely, if he is all knowing then he will know what our actions are going to be before we do them, and we are therefore not acting freely.”
This question of omniscience and free will is one that the Christian hears a lot, but I’ve never really understood where it comes from, nor its force. After all, how does simply KNOWING what will happen actually MAKE it happen? I know that if I offer my wife the choice of a plate of chocolate chip cookies or a plate of liver and onions (to use Dr Craig’s example) that she will choose the cookies every time. Does that mean that I made her choose the cookies, that she didn’t freely choose them herself? I don’t see how. Because I know her so well, I know what she will do, and I am only a finite creature with a finite mind. How much more can God, being infinite and possessing an infinite mind, who knows us better than perhaps we know ourselves, see what we will do in any given set of circumstances we might be in? I fail to see how the knowledge of what we will do equates to Him making us do it.

“Being omniscient He will know who is to go to Heaven and Hell before we are even born.”
True. So?

“Furthermore, He would have known what is going to happen to the Universe before he created it.”
Again, true. So?

“Is he just bored?”
Absolutely not! What God wants from us is not entertainment. What He wants is relationship, freely entered into by people who choose to follow Him in this life that they may spend eternity with Him in the next.

Devils Advocate said...

"Absolutely not! What God wants from us is not entertainment. What He wants is relationship, freely entered into by people who choose to follow Him in this life that they may spend eternity with Him in the next".

Then he was/is lonely?

Robin said...

haha, do you have children because you are lonely? perhaps, but children really come from the love you have for your spouse. one's love for another produces one more. one plus one is three.
hah, sorry. what I mean is that neither we, nor God creates because we are lonely, but because it is the natural outpouring of true love.

for freewill, see these:
http://blog.timordei.org/2008/05/free-will-whats-that.html
http://blog.timordei.org/2008/05/nature-of-christ-and-freewill.html
http://blog.timordei.org/2008/06/predestination.html
http://blog.timordei.org/2008/06/predestination-response.html

Robin said...

BTW, excellent response Dave

David England said...

"Then he was/is lonely?"
Not at all! The Christian God is Triune - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, co-existent, co-eternal, complete and lacking in nothing. It seems to me, therefore, that what God wanted was to share this life, this love, with others, to allow others to experience what He experiences.

David England said...

A more detailed answer to your question can be found in one of Bill Craig's podcasts entitled "Q&A: Is God Needy? Is God Just a Projection? Are God's Attributes Contradictory?"

Go to this page (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/PageServer?pagename=podcasting_main) and download that podcast. The first 5 minutes are dedicated to your question. See what you think!