Thursday, June 4, 2009

Render to Caesar

Note: If you pick up the post from here, you may be left wondering what we are talking about. I suggest reading previous commentary prior to this (link provided below), otherwise, this post may not be for you.

I want to thank both Vinny and DaveE for excellent commentary and keeping this discussion alive. I agree with DaveE though, it has the potential to digress forever and I want to see what ol' DaveE Jones has to say next.
Our newest commentator, Vinny, has responded to something I said about Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon (see comments in How Do We Know? Part 3). I think it maybe worth the post to say that I was not arguing for historical evidence of Caesar's existence, rather his crossing of the Rubicon - though on that subject, I would like to make a few points and then defer to Dave.

I may have read too much into what Vinny said concerning coins that were minted, thereby providing evidence of Caesar's exploits, but I would propose a similarity between said coins and the Church.
First, noting that the coins were minted does not show that Caesar actually crossed the river. Yet it is good secondary evidence of the fact, though circumstantial. Subsequently, "The point of no return"* is not usually a thing questioned within historical narrative, even though we aren't sure where the Rubicon flowed at the time of the crossing! It should be noted, as well, that the written evidence in said case is not first hand but fourth!!

DaveE is right though in that we are blurring the lines between evidence and explanation. My point is this: that we take the written evidence of Caesar's crossing, combined with these coins (which in themselves provide no other evidence save that they were minted in Caesar's name) as a true account because there is substantial secondary physical evidence (coins) and the narrative itself doesn't conflict with our own metaphysical world view.

But how then is the evidence (not the explanation) for Christ's burial different? There is nothing in McCullagh's "known laws of nature" that disagrees with a man dying and being buried! And the secondary (which I may argue is primary) physical evidence that is produced is a full blown, Jesus Christ-is-the-Died-and-was-buried,-now-Risen-Lord-Christianity from 1 Corinthians 15 within, at the very least, two decades all over the Roman Empire. Even Mormons don't grow that fast! It is the explanation (sorry Dave!!) of the Church's birth that we must consider next.
I want to wait and see what DaveE has to say, because I know he will cover all of these topics in the upcoming posts.

As a last note, 1 Corinthians 15 1-7 is just as much a reliably historical account of the burial as anything else we have, whether Joseph of Arimathea is mentioned or not. The Roman practice of throwing people in mass graves was not a rule of Roman military practice, and they were certainly known to release bodies to those who asked - they didn't care one way or the other. Besides, the accounts available record this as the case. Again, direct evidence. Circumstantial evidence and explanatory theory can work in both directions - but at the present point of DaveE's argument, we are dealing with direct evidence. Once we have all the direct evidence established, we can continue with whatever fancy happens across our paths.

Lets get all the cards on the table first.

6 comments:

Vinny said...

Direct evidence is that which comes from someone speaking from personal knowledge of the facts. None of the gospels purport to be first person acccounts.

Robin said...

1 Corinthians 9:1
"Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?"

2 Peter 1:16
"For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty."

John 21:24
"This disciple was an eyewitness of these things and wrote them down."

I think that should speak volumes though I will add this just for kickers about Mark's Gospel from Peter Williams, Warden of Tyndale House, Cambridge:

"The manuscript evidence for Mark’s Gospel is far better than that of most classical works... ...The evidence is actually stronger than for many of the works upon which Greek or Roman history is founded. If it were not for the extraordinary subject matter of Mark’s Gospel, it is conceivable that there would not even be debate among historians as to whether or not it is reliable."

Vinny said...

I agree that a strong case can be made that Paul’s account of what he saw in 1 Corinthians 15 constitutes direct evidence of a post-resurrection appearance.

2 Peter 1:16 purports to be direct evidence of something although I am not entirely certain what. However, the evidence for the authenticity of 2 Peter is pretty thin.

John 21;24 is a note written by someone other than the author of the rest of the gospel: “We know that his testimony is true.” The author of the rest of the gospel never purports to be giving first person testimony.

I am not certain what the point of the quote is. Up ‘til now, I did not think we had not been discussing the strength of evidence for the reliability of the manuscripts.

Robin said...

A great piece by Lewis:
http://books.google.com/books?id=e19zlwlOVwUC&printsec=frontcover&hl=en#PPA100,M1
not sure if anyone can see this... its missing pages 111 and 113, but hopefully it will whet your appetite to maybe pick it up at the library.

Anonymous said...

John refers to himself in third person in this Gospel. This is a specifically Western idea to always refer to oneself in first person. This is a common way of writing humbly. It does not mean that it was second hand, and I find it amazing that modern critics would conclude that when most anyone until the 19th century did not.

As much of this that I have read, it seems most of the discussion was on the reliability of the manuscripts.

Robin points to Lewis; Fernseeds and Elephants is a better example.

Robin said...

Fernseed and Elephants. That is a fantastic piece! Thanks for recommending it, I clear forgot about that one! (kinda hard to get hands on maybe, but well worth the trouble!)
Thanks!