More Debate!

Here is a continuation from the article by Mr. Cline over at About.com.

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Austin writes:

"[Concerning the abolition of slavery by Christians such as Wilberforce..] And, if you know anything about history, you know that it was maintained and defended by Christians."

James writes:
No, it was maintained and defended by men and women who claimed Christianity, but their actions clearly didn't show them to be very good ones. Besides, if this is a debate on the horrors of what religions can do, than it is an easy argument to make because most of the slavers and traders were Atheists, and far more people have died under regimes denouncing religion all together. People will be people, mean and ugly. That is precisely why I'm Christian. Because I am an ass and I need saving. I cannot do it on my own and I refuse to think that, in the light of what man is capable of, with or without religion, we are without hope.

Austin writes:

"Southern Christians would have disagreed with you [on the condoning of slavery in the OT]."

James writes:
See above. Just because a man says that God tells him to do one thing or condones something doesn't mean He actually does. We must "test all things." Is something sound theologically, philosophically and does it fit with everything else that God [or any "god"] proclaims. People do things in the name of "gods" all the time. I realize that is a hard point for you and many people. Honestly, it is for me as well, them's the facts.

Austin writes:

"Yet religious beliefs are protected against discrimination."

James writes:
I didn't say religions should be discriminated against. I said some beliefs. Hitler believed it was good and proper to kill all Jews. It wasn't his religion, he just believed it. Do you think we should condone that? Even those who do not hold to an absolute morality understand that as evil.

Austin writes:

"So, it’s not “bad” from your religious perspective to discriminate against people (oops, I thought you said that wasn’t OK?) who are perceived to be insufficiently heterosexual? Interesting."

James writes:
"Insufficiently heterosexual" I like that. Very interesting point of view, one I will have to take into consideration.
No, remember I said thievery should be discriminated against... how should one do that unless to kick out thieves? Only in theory should we hold moral standards, but when it comes to people who go against our beliefs we say nothing? Tolerance only works when people don't agree. The school didn't "burn" the girls as one of the posters suggested happen to the school. Granted, I don't think it was the best (to say the least) way to handle the situation, but it is within rights, both religious and civil. Every time you complain and post arguments about the death of Christianity, Atheists do the same thing. You "discriminate." I live in Tokyo. Full of people who really are "Atheist" and not just angry at God. They don't care one way or the other and never say anything, right or left. I don't preach to them either, they aren't interested, so why would I share? Jesus came to save the sick, not the healthy. The people who ask, or have opinions on my God, those I must answer, just as you feel inclined to answer me. It is difficult to hate God and not believe in Him at the same time.

I would say that much of the vitriol (I do love that word, Dave) still floats around from both sides. From my side, I am truly sorry. It is the worst thing a Christian can do; we are supposed to show love for every one. (Sometimes that means kicking two girls out of school (for what the school I am sure sees as) protecting the rest. The girls, if I am not mistaken, are still free to go to any other school, am I wrong? (Please don't get the impression I actually think they should have been expelled. I noted above there was surely a better way.)

Austin writes:

"It’s an error to treat all preferences as choices. That goes hand-in-hand with the common Christian error of treating homosexuality as if it were nothing but a sexual behavior, demonstrating an abysmal poverty of understanding of human sexuality."

James writes:
I understand where you come from here. I do also think that some preferences are not choices... though for thinking individuals, that is usually not the case. Besides, I, as a male have a preference to want to "be with" every attractive female I see. I have the choice to act on that or not. I choose not to, because I believe that it is wrong. Not just because the Bible says so, but I can deduce that with logic. I also believe that God gave me that brain and expect that I use it in conjunction with every desire that passes my vision. Don't say that we "don't understand sexuality" without expecting a retort that you "don't understand" what we mean by "real love." I suggest C.S. Lewis' The Four Loves as a great read, for the Atheist or Theist.

Austin writes:

"Not if it doesn’t exist, and given how many other alleged deities people have believed in, it’s not possible to seek them all with all of one’s heart, mind, and soul. Then there are all the other alleged supernatural critters littering the shores of human cultures."

James writes:
I think for the most part, it is spirituality that is being misunderstood here - something not too uncommon among people everywhere. I would be very arrogant to say that I understood it fully. However God says that you will find Him if you search. Some people only give it half a go, some only give it a fad's journey. Jesus notes this in His parable of the seed strewn along the way. I'm sure you've read it. But If we are to seek Him fully, completely, as one seeking water in the desert, you will find Him. I did. Just because you cannot "see" doesn't mean He doesn't exist. If you don't think He does, then why do you care what others have to say about Him?
If you seek, you will find. It may not be in this lifetime. God never tells us what happens to those who have not heard His "name." But He does tell us that those who love justice for justice for its own sake, mercy and compassion for their's, then they have not denied the call that He put within us all. Only when one hears that one must give up our own "desires" do we protest. Surely you love goodness? But we must be humble to love it fully!

In the end, giving up my desires for God is a small price. He gives back overflowing in measure with His right hand what He takes with His left. If He made you to begin with, He will only give you more of what you "are truly meant to be."