I think the topic of predestination is WAY too big to get a thorough examination in an environment such as this, but I would like to offer a few thoughts.
Firstly, I agree with you, Robin, on the claim you made on Thursday that we don’t (can’t?) fully understand all there is to this discussion, and because of that I would not get too dogmatic on this issue (as I might on others...).
Secondly, as for your example of the vine, I think that illustration implies that God chooses us for who we are or for our qualities (“He yet picks the ripest and best”) and I think that is a flawed analogy. “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Eph 2: 8-9). If God picks us because we are the “ripest and best” then at least part of it is us.
Thirdly, what of the Great Commission? If God predestined certain people to come to Him (and that is certainly His right: see Rom 9:21-23) then why tell us to go and spread the Good News? Why send Jesus at all? Furthermore, if God decided not to show mercy and grace to all people, but only to a select group, why did the angel tell Mary that “I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people” (Luke 2:10; emphasis mine)? I know there are many verses that speak of “predestination” or “preordination” and many that speak of Christ dying for all people, but space and time prohibits a proper examination of them (though it is something I plan to do when I have a few spare weeks...).
To finish, another point of agreeance, Robin. In a way, this whole discussion is moot, because you are undeniably right about one thing: I will not be held accountable for what others do, just what I do. And Jesus clearly said to go into all the world and preach the Good News to all creation (Mark 6:15). How can you argue with that?
3 comments:
Most well put, and no, I don't think anyone can argue with that. Nor do I think they should try.
I do know what you mean about the fruit - I knew that analogy would fall apart on me fairly quickly, and honestly, all analogies fall apart in some space. I used it because Jesus used it. He is the vine and His Father the Owner. He trims all that does not bear fruit.
Considering that and considering what you have put down here as well, I think the answer clear:
Do not judge your neighbor, but walk with him/her. It is not your place to even wonder what will happen, but it is your place to hope and to share that hope.
1 Cor. 4:1-5
"Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy. But to me it is a very small thing that I may be judged by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even judge myself. For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God."
Funny thing about this, and this is what I say in a class I teach to non-Christians is that at some point, they DO have to decide.
If they want to follow Jesus, they have to decide. If they are chosen by God, as explained in John 3:1-21, then they have to decide if they are chosen to be born again.
Either way, determined or not, they have to eventually say "Yes, I am a Christ follower." It is more of a self discovery than a decision. As Christ says "He who has ears let him hear."
As a believer, you are eternal with the Father and the Son because of the Christ. We were chosen before we were created on earth. Mathematically speaking, we too have no beginning or end either, yet created. Spiritually speaking, it is a mystery. How we are finite at one point is impossible for us to comprehend.
I offer one way to look at it is that, God chose us because we chose Him, well because He chose us. because... infinite.
An infinity of infinities! Well then, we will have a long time to ponder it, no? ;P
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